round robin training flights

Ken Greenwood

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round robin training flights
« on: January 21, 2019, 12:30:35 PM »
as I'm likely taking a CP140 Aurora out of CYZX this evening during Moncton Monday for a 'round robin' training flight - thought I'd spend a sec on the clearance formats we use for these specific flights.  These training flights are not just military - we used to get Cougar Helicopters filing and filing them all the time for their S92s as well as other local operators

consider the following flightplan...

SFSH22 P3/R N250A060 CYZX YSJ (APPCH +15) N250A090 V311 YQM (APPCH +15) N250A110 V313 YHZ (APPCH +15) N250A080 UZX CYZX

this plan is for a 415 Sqdn Aurora from Greenwood requesting enroute approaches at Saint John, Moncton and Halifax before returning to homebase - the N250A090 indication is the true airspeed and altitude request for the next leg.  This aircraft calls you for a clearance...

SFSH 22 cleared to the Greenwood TACAN via direct YSJ and flightplanned route, maintain 6thousand, depart rwy26 and proceed on course, squawk 4321

The clearance is read back and departure proceeds as for any other IFR departure  --  note we clear to the final airport fix (in this case the Greenwood TACAN) via routing to the first enroute airport and F/P route.  The flight is now approaching CYSJ and is preparing for an ILSrwy05 and requests his missed approach clearance...

SFSH22 is cleared to the Greenwood TACAN via V311 YQM flightplanned route, maintain 9thousand, on completion of the approach climb runway heading expect radar vectors
SFSH22 is cleared to the Greenwood TACAN via V311 YQM flightplanned route, on completion of the approach fly the YSJ4 SID departure

note that we once again cleared to the final destination via the next destination and F/P route - this procedure is continued until enroute back to the final airport

consider this flightplan...

CHI05T S92/G N160A030 CYHZ YHZ (YHZ090R-180R 15-25 DME A30B70 +30 mins) CYHZ

This flight is Cougar05trainer a Sikorsky S92 helibus that wishes to depart and head to the east and fly in, what we refer to as, a 'piece of pie'  --  in this case the southeast quadrant off the YHZ VOR (090-180 radials) between 15 and 25 dme, and between 3 and 7 thousand feet, for 30 minutes before returning for one, or multiple approaches


CHI05T cleared to the YHZ VOR via the YHZ4 departure - amend your SID altitude to 3000 - and flightplanned route - squawk 4321

again the flight is then treated as a standard IFR departure until airborne  --  as I always vectored my departures this is how the departure phase would proceed...

HZ departure CHI05T with you on the SID heading 145 climbing through 1500'
CHI05T radar identified, altitude checks, turn left heading 090 and maintain 3000

CHI05T continue H090 until established in your block - cleared to work between the 090 and 180 radials off the YHZ VOR, 15 to 25 DME, maintain 3 block 7 thousand, expect further clearance 1530Z

note you can change the radials and DMEs of the 'piece of pie' to suit traffic - if rwy32 is in use you might not want this helicopter out operating in the southeast quadrant so change it to the 360 to 090 R  --  once the aircraft enters the block he can navigate, climb, descend do whatever he likes within the confines of the block

Hopefully this narrative did not become too lengthy and believe I have just scratched the surface of these types of clearances - although rare on VATSIM the savvy controller knows how to fire out these clearances

Richie Queally

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Re: round robin training flights
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 01:25:54 PM »
This is very interesting Ken thanks for sharing.

While you're on the topic of training, there was a question that kind of caught us the other day, and maybe your real world experience might help here.

Let's say there was someone flying from CYZT Port Hardy to CYXS Prince George. Their IFR flightplan would be maybe N190A150 CYZT UAB YSX CYXS. CYZP is class E and there's a few CAEs and V airways around it.

After around 30 or so miles the class E and B airspace and and it's class G to 18000 until around 50 or so miles before CYXS.

The question is, would you keep talking to him as he goes to the class G or would you clear him into uncontrolled airspace until he reenters ?
Richie Queally
VATéir C1

Ken Greenwood

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Re: round robin training flights
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 03:34:38 PM »
hi Richie

if I understand your situation correctly you're wondering how to handle IFR flights that...

...leave and reenter controlled airspace; or
...that commence in controlled but at some point enter uncontrolled airspace; or
...that commence in uncontrolled and transition to controlled airspace

situation 1 treat as normal flight with the addition of WICA (while in controlled airspace) to the altitude
   cleared to destination via flightplanned route, maintain 15thousand while in controlled airspace
situation 2 treat as normal but as the flight enters uncontrolled
   leaving controlled airspace - descent is at your convenience - radar service terminates
situation 3 advise that departure will be at pilots discretion and clearance will be valid upon entry to controlled airspace
   cleared to Vancouver via flightplanned route - maintain 15thousand while in controlled airspace - clearance valid 50DME south of YXX (or wherever you determine controlled airspace begins along route of flight

you can also specify at what altitude or a specific point that the flight is to enter controlled airspace if you require that for traffic - fr'instance opposite direction traffic is northbound at 12thousand and you want to ensure you have separation between the 2 vertically when the two are in controlled airspace - you can advise the flight to enter controlled airspace at or above 13thousand  --  remember you can only provide separation in controlled airspace - if flights are conflicting outside of controlled provide traffic information

hopefully this answers your question

Ken Greenwood

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Re: round robin training flights
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 04:01:49 PM »
..and in further reading of your question Richie - not sure I answered it

if we had radar and frequency coverage in the area we would keep the flight on and provide traffic information as best we could until he was a 'reasonable' distance from destination and then ship him over to the local traffic frequency

kinda funny story - we used to get bizjets flying up from the states to northern NB for the excellent salmon fishing up there - they'd be used to vectored SIDs to radar STARs and check in with us and all they'd get (radar coverage was extremely poor up north and the airspace is all uncontrolled from about 50 miles north of YCH)

cleared to descend out of controlled airspace below 12,500, radar service terminates, cleared enroute frequencies g'day
they'd come back with
...ahh N1234X we were kinda hoping for vectors to the ILS up there in Charlo...

we'd answer that we were unable to provide that service and advise of any reported traffic in the area

to even make it stranger - you could have an IFR clearance out for the airport but if it was determined they would pass in uncontrolled airspace there was nothing you could do but pass traffic - so you could, theoretically, have nose to nose climbing descending traffic that were obviously an issue with nothing to resolve it but traffic passing and getting them, hopefully, on the same frequency

Owen Kane

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Re: round robin training flights
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 10:05:54 AM »
Ken, Very interesting indeed, thank you for sharing.