October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes

Mark Trumble

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October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« on: November 02, 2018, 05:24:43 PM »
Find below a link to the meeting minutes for a VATCAN staff meeting that took place on October 28th 2018.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ESVwAIX6Gm-7reYbJeeDfSYy1LMqdV8xslmgJ_Ewka8/edit?usp=sharing
Mark Trumble

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m.trumble@vatcan.ca

Nathan Power

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2018, 05:31:16 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to write this up, Mark!

Jagard Strong

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 10:52:19 AM »
After reading the minutes I would like to share my thoughts from the average members perspective.

1)A general overview of the document seems vague. As a general member of VATCAN, I find it hard to understand what is being said. These types of documents should explain (in slight to moderate detail) what is happening in the community. While the "minutes taker" dictates who is speaking, the use of "explains" is overused. There is no clear information of what is being discussed about the matter at hand. It rather just states "something is being said". The MINUTES do go on to explain that a recording will become available. But still, shouldn't there be more of a backbone to the paper copy?

2) The bilingual requirement for CYUL. Aviation (as many are aware) has only one language requirement: English. While different areas of the world pilots & ATC may choose to operate in mother tongue, it is English that is the preferred language of the skies. Adding a restriction to the area has and will only cause staffing issues. Thus causing problems during events that require controllers to operate the YUL airspace. With that being said, VATSIM is a unique environment where there is no language requirement to participate in the network as either pilot or controller. So why would VATCAN impose a language restriction for training in YUL FIR?

3) Will there be a General meeting for all VATCAN members before the end of the year? This could be an opportunity to give and get feedback from the view of the membership of how operations have impacted their enjoy for this year. This may also give the STAFF a chance to ask the membership on where they see things going?

Cheers
Jagard

Richie Queally

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 11:57:08 AM »
+1 on Jagard's suggestion to hold a town hall type meeting. We had one scheduled for January this year but that went poof. We're well overdue one at this stage.
Richie Queally
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Nathan Power

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 01:03:29 PM »
All very good points and questions! Allow me to explain them all a but more in-depth:

In the history of VATCAN meetings, there has rarely been a more detailed version of a minutes recap than something of this style. However, I definitely understand that from an outside perspective, this may seem a bit bland and confusing, so perhaps a more detailed recap is something for us to look at for future meetings.

Of course, you're right about English being the only real requirement for the network - my plan for ZUL is to not enforce any language regulations, but to encourage the FIR to continue using their primary language, as Montreal has quite a few French pilots. However, I also encourage any members to head to Montreal, as all users are expected to be fluent in English. There never has been a restriction, and never will there be - it's just unfair to VATCAN.

Finally, yes! There absolutely should be a town hall planned, and I will add that to my list of things to do. We, of course, have an initial FIR staff meeting planned for the near future, but I'll plan to include a full VATCAN town hall meeting before the year's end.

Hopefully this answered your questions!

After reading the minutes I would like to share my thoughts from the average members perspective.

1)A general overview of the document seems vague. As a general member of VATCAN, I find it hard to understand what is being said. These types of documents should explain (in slight to moderate detail) what is happening in the community. While the "minutes taker" dictates who is speaking, the use of "explains" is overused. There is no clear information of what is being discussed about the matter at hand. It rather just states "something is being said". The MINUTES do go on to explain that a recording will become available. But still, shouldn't there be more of a backbone to the paper copy?

2) The bilingual requirement for CYUL. Aviation (as many are aware) has only one language requirement: English. While different areas of the world pilots & ATC may choose to operate in mother tongue, it is English that is the preferred language of the skies. Adding a restriction to the area has and will only cause staffing issues. Thus causing problems during events that require controllers to operate the YUL airspace. With that being said, VATSIM is a unique environment where there is no language requirement to participate in the network as either pilot or controller. So why would VATCAN impose a language restriction for training in YUL FIR?

3) Will there be a General meeting for all VATCAN members before the end of the year? This could be an opportunity to give and get feedback from the view of the membership of how operations have impacted their enjoy for this year. This may also give the STAFF a chance to ask the membership on where they see things going?

Cheers
Jagard

Liesel Downes

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2018, 10:51:28 PM »
I would personally suggest a Town Hall at least twice a year. They're an excellent opportunity for the membership to express their views and concerns and a biannual frequency seems to work well from my experience.

Tomas Hansson

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 02:29:42 PM »
Of course, you're right about English being the only real requirement for the network - my plan for ZUL is to not enforce any language regulations, but to encourage the FIR to continue using their primary language, as Montreal has quite a few French pilots. However, I also encourage any members to head to Montreal, as all users are expected to be fluent in English. There never has been a restriction, and never will there be - it's just unfair to VATCAN.

In regards to "never has been a restriction", the below is from the reply I got from the Montreal FIR when I tried to apply as a visiting controller last year. Take it for what it is worth...

Quote
Normally we grant visitors full access only when they are bilingual. Because you're english only, we allow control of High Center FL180 and above and full control of the CYOW TCA. So basically you can still handle departures and arrivals from and to high levels from YOW. Hopefully that is good enough!
Tomas Hansson
VATSIM Supervisor

Yanick Coulombe

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2019, 11:27:24 PM »
Adding a restriction to the area has and will only cause staffing issues.
The staffing issue is not due to the language restriction. Around 2005 CZUL was more staffed than CZYZ despite having that same language restriction.

So why would VATCAN impose a language restriction for training in YUL FIR?
The restriction is from the FIR and is not imposed by VATCAN.

Honestly I don't think it's ever gonna change, basically the CZUL FIR in Vatsim offers a bilingual service like in real life.
Yanick Coulombe (965064)
FIR Chief - FIR de Montréal
y.coulombe@vatcan.ca
www.CZUL.ca

Jeff McMillan

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2019, 10:10:08 AM »

The staffing issue is not due to the language restriction. Around 2005 CZUL was more staffed than CZYZ despite having that same language restriction.



Yanick

CZUL is dead/failed and numerous controllers outside of CZUL are stepping up to rebuild it for the future. I am excited for CZUL's future as CYUL is a main hub for flights in VATCAN! However it is imperative during this process that we all move forward and be open to trying new things. We need to stop comparing what it was like in 2005....that was 14 years ago!!!! Times change and we all need to adapt and stop living in the past! "This is how we did it in the past" can no longer be a valid statement as it will only hold us back!

We need everyone to jump on ship as we build up momentum for CZUL!

Jeff McMillan (1275572)
Communications & Events Director
http://www.vatcan.ca
j.mcmillan@vatcan.ca
VATCAN5@vatcan.ca

Yanick Coulombe

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2019, 12:32:56 PM »

The staffing issue is not due to the language restriction. Around 2005 CZUL was more staffed than CZYZ despite having that same language restriction.

"This is how we did it in the past" can no longer be a valid statement as it will only hold us back!

We need everyone to jump on ship as we build up momentum for CZUL!

My argument is not "This is how we did it in the past", my argument is, "this is how it must be done for realism".

Comparing what was happening 14 years ago is actually relevant, I'm just proving the false association between "not having any staffs" and "french only requirement", they are not directly related, that's what I'm trying to prove by talking about the past, I agree that it is not a good reason in itself. The real argument is realism.

I do agree that right now it is not possible with french only instructors, I am not opposed to letting English only instructors help us rebuild the FIR. But I am completely opposed to prematurely assuming that the french requirement is bad for the FIR and must be removed permanently.

I applaud the progress made in CZUL by VATCAN. I also agree that it's not possible to revive the FIR with french only instructors at the moment.

Yanick
Yanick Coulombe (965064)
FIR Chief - FIR de Montréal
y.coulombe@vatcan.ca
www.CZUL.ca

Philip Dowling

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2019, 02:13:11 PM »
Guys

If I may suggest.  This discussion should be held for the time being.

Rob and Travis are doing a lot of work with the folks in Montreal to get that FIR back on it's feet.  This is valuable and essential work. 

The discussion around language is moot until they have completed what they are doing.  This needs to be a staged process and flapping gums is not going to help it.  Action will!  Rob and Travis are taking action.  Yanick, I know when it's possible you will be taking action on getting to the level you need to for instructing and further assisting.

So let's not be so concerned with what "rules" work and do not work.  We don't need to be concerned with that right now, nor might we ever need to be concerned with it.  Let's focus on the job at hand in helping CZUL getting back to where it deserves to be!
Phil Dowling  (813710)
VATCAN Division Director

p.dowling@vatcan.ca
vatcan.ca

Jeff McMillan

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 02:20:29 PM »
Well said Phil

Time will only tell.

If over the next several months bilingual controllers step up and join CZUL then there is no need to make a change to the langue guideline. However if CZUL cannot become self sufficient in the next several months then the langue requirement  should be removed to reflect the VATSIM Code of Regulations Section 1.01A "Members should be
able to converse and/or provide air traffic control services in English, the internationally accepted official language for air traffic control."

While Travis and Rob are at work, Moncton will start controlling CZUL FL 280 and above in english only as well as providing 2 instructors. Hopefully that will start generating more traffic in the sector to attract attention and new members!
Jeff McMillan (1275572)
Communications & Events Director
http://www.vatcan.ca
j.mcmillan@vatcan.ca
VATCAN5@vatcan.ca

Yanick Coulombe

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Re: October 28th 2018 VATCAN Staff Meeting Minutes
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 03:42:52 PM »
Obviously we shouldn't waste our time with what doesn't matter at the moment.
VATSIM Code of Regulations Section 1.01A "Members should be
able to converse and/or provide air traffic control services in English, the internationally accepted official language for air traffic control."
That's actually the only rules keeping us from offering ONLY French services  ;D .
Just joking around.
By the way there is a good number of visiting controllers from as far as Asia who are bilingual and offered to control and or instruct but were just never answered to because of the FIR's inactivity.
So just a precision, I am not concerned about this rule I'm just 'clarifying' stuff and I appreciate that Jeff
On that note let me just say that the work in CZUL is going great and faster than I could imagine.
I was anticipating a small lack of French-ism in the whole thing due to the new instructors not speaking it, but to my great surprise I have not even felt the policy change yet. On the scope and in communications, Rob has always put French first! This is more than he has to do and the FIR members truly appreciate the effort.
Thank you,
Yanick
Yanick Coulombe (965064)
FIR Chief - FIR de Montréal
y.coulombe@vatcan.ca
www.CZUL.ca